Curse

draxynnic · Sep 14, 2007, 01:33 AM // 01:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial_Kitsune

Indeed, grinding is absolutely optional. Here is what you can do to avoid or alleviate it.

Ask yourself if you really need that elite armor, max title, rare weapon, etc. Do those pretty pixels really worth hours of your life? To learn about yourself a little more, you can take this test. If you are determined to get that item of your dreams, then you need to choose a way to acquire it.

Some things such as FoW armor or max allegiance title would require you to do this (Source). To make grind less boring, you can grind moderately, but regularly and vary types of grind. This will make you a little bit less depressed grinder.

If your goal is less ambitious, you could try to achieve it via completion of quests / missions / areas. A good example is rank five requirement for GWEN armor. This requirement should not be there, but can be easily achieved without any grind if you are willing to wait a little longer. You'll have about 11K Asura faction after you finish storyline.

Beating GWEN and taking blessings on the way = 11 K points
Turning in Hero Handbook for faction: 2.5K
Shards of Orr dungeon: 3K
Oola's Lab dungeon: 0.5K
Bogroot Growths dungeon: 1K
Arachni's Haunt dungeon: 1.5K
Tarnished Coast Quests: about 1.5K
Getting blessings while doing all of the above dungeons and quests: probably above 5K

Do not turn play into work!

Bad example. The Asura are possibly the most generous race in handing out reputation - certainly when it comes to primary quests (some of the Dwarf side quests can be pretty hefty with their reputation rewards, though...). The Ebon Vanguard doesn't give you nearly as many points as the Asura do (example: My primary has completed all the Ebon Vanguard quests but only a handful of the Asura side quests, as well as doing some grinding on the Vanguard side without having done any on the Asura side. If she hadn't turned her book in to the Vanguard, she'd have more Asura points than Vanguard now.

AnnaCloud9 · Sep 14, 2007, 01:46 AM // 01:46

So I'm guessing that if you were a golfer you'd prefer to start on the 18th hole?
Or impress your friends at a mexican party by, whoa, not wearing a blindfold when you try and hit the pinata?

State of mind indeed, because both those activities would be oh so much more fun if those were the rules.

free_fall · Sep 14, 2007, 05:28 AM // 05:28

I'm kind of with Zinger on this - I spend a lot of time helping on missions; last 2 or 3 months it's been mostly Vizunah/Naphui/Tahnnakkai/Sunjiang. I don't advertise as "helping", I just join in - if they ask if anyone's done it before, I'll say "a few times".

And I still have some newer chars that I'm working on.

draxynnic · Sep 14, 2007, 05:58 AM // 05:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnnaCloud9

So I'm guessing that if you were a golfer you'd prefer to start on the 18th hole?
Or impress your friends at a mexican party by, whoa, not wearing a blindfold when you try and hit the pinata?

Is that directed at me?

If it is, I answer your questions with another question:
Would you enjoy being told that after playing 18 holes that you still haven't achieved anything, but that because you've already played all the holes on the ground you can only improve your standing by continuous putting of the ball into the hole across one metre of grass?

Would you enjoy being told that you don't get any of the goodies from the pinata unless you spent the rest of the party blindfolded as well?

In my mind, the quests and so on are the 18 holes and the pinata. The armours and the title are the goodies and the standing, and the repetitive putting and the continued blindfolded status are the random running around the zone killing things for reputation. I don't know about you, but I'd rather have another 18 holes or another pinata - or some reasonable rewards for repeating the original 18.

On the original subject: My non-grind activities basically come from not being a 24/7 player and having ten characters. You can get quite a lot of mileage out of playing three - now four - campaigns and doing all the quests - I still don't have any campaign that all of my characters have defeated, and I do find that the subtleties of each class's playstyle and means of achieving objectives is enough to prevent that from being grind-like repetition even though each character is looking to achieve the same objectives.

Cebe · Sep 14, 2007, 07:46 AM // 07:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

The examples I've heard are a) Helping Guildies (which really doesn't count), b) Using GW as a really fancy (and CPU draining) IRC client, and c) Spending time spamming in a city for trading (which is theoetically grinding)

Yes, but ANYTHING could be classed as "theoretically grinding"...Just doing primary quests, for the sake of getting to Zin Ku Corridor so you can go to the Underworld could be classed as grinding if you don't want tohave to do it, and just want instant access... Grind is entirely a personal viewpoint. I recently had my Mesmer farm Charr for Ebon Vanguard points so she could buy Armor...now, I didn't consider that grind. It was entertaining to do (I did it without a devourer...was more fun that way), and I was doing it for something I wanted...so I was happy to do it. If I was to go on to get Rank 6 for no apparent reason then that, to me, would be grinding...as the only character I care about titles on is my Ele.

There are too many people who seem to think this game has been designed with Grinders in mind, when actually, in my opinion, it's a nice balance. You used to be able to have to attain Rank 7 in a reputation to be able to craft armor, now that is down to Rank 5, which is much more attainable There are too many people who seem to think they are entitled to everything the game has to offer with little or no work...but...if everyone had everything, noone would be special, and the game would certainly lose out. For instance, I'd *like* obsidian armor on my Mesmer. Now I *could* farm and farm, but frankly, after having weighed up how long it would take and what other things I could be doing, I'd really rather not...and i'm happy to make that decision.

Assuming the definition of Grinding means "farming ones ass off so they can afford rare weapons and high-end armor" then no, you don't need to grind. You can get collector's weapons easily by playing through the game and knowing what collectable items to keep (thank you, wiki) and you easily make enough money from quest rewards and merch-drops for buying armor, unless you also go for the collector's armor too. For months I had a Blue Collector's Air Staff...I still have it in fact, and it doesn't work any less well than my Amadis' Air Staff, which I farmed later on when I was a little more experienced...except farming that staff wasn't grind, because I wanted it.

So, in short, if people are not content with what they can afford in-game, they really should find another game to play. Find another game which has all towns unlocked, all skills unlocked, all armor, all weapons, the max amount of money you can carry...and then think... "oh...now what do I do? I have nothing to work for". I play GuildWars thinking if there's something I want, and can't be bothered to farm/power trade/work for, then I don't want it enough...so I don't bother trying to obtain it.

Shyft the Pyro · Sep 14, 2007, 08:58 AM // 08:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

Yes, but ANYTHING could be classed as "theoretically grinding"...Just doing primary quests, for the sake of getting to Zin Ku Corridor so you can go to the Underworld could be classed as grinding if you don't want tohave to do it, and just want instant access...

But by this stretch of the definition, getting through the storyline just so you can complete it is also a grind. What makes this "grind" different from the actual grind ANet is relying so heavily on - the title grind - is that you only need to get to Zin Ku Corridor once to be able to access the Underworld.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

Grind is entirely a personal viewpoint. I recently had my Mesmer farm Charr for Ebon Vanguard points so she could buy Armor...now, I didn't consider that grind. It was entertaining to do (I did it without a devourer...was more fun that way), and I was doing it for something I wanted...so I was happy to do it. If I was to go on to get Rank 6 for no apparent reason then that, to me, would be grinding...as the only character I care about titles on is my Ele.

Hold on a minute. Going for something you want and doing something you want are two completely different things. You may want a Factions allegiance title and try to go after it, but that won't make the process of getting the title any less grind-dependent. You'll be repeating the same activity (point farming) over and over again, which is precisely the definition of a grind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

There are too many people who seem to think this game has been designed with Grinders in mind, when actually, in my opinion, it's a nice balance. You used to be able to have to attain Rank 7 in a reputation to be able to craft armor, now that is down to Rank 5, which is much more attainable

If the game isn't designed with the grind in mind, why do GWEN armors require titles to access? Is limiting access by putting armor far enough into the storyline not enough any more, the way it was in all three campaigns? The real reason, of course, is not the size of the expansion but the changed nature of the game: people must be kept interested, so the game is extended by means of a grind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

There are too many people who seem to think they are entitled to everything the game has to offer with little or no work...but...if everyone had everything, noone would be special, and the game would certainly lose out. For instance, I'd *like* obsidian armor on my Mesmer. Now I *could* farm and farm, but frankly, after having weighed up how long it would take and what other things I could be doing, I'd really rather not...and i'm happy to make that decision.

I absolutely agree that accomplishment should be rewarded, and that rewards should not be handed out to anyone who isn't willing to work for them, but the current GW system is to reward repeated, practically automated activity, especially and specifically with regard to titles.

That said, I absolutely despise the "no one would be special" argument. If this was true, for example, PvP would be reduced to everyone having the same, "best" build, but limiting factors such as player skill and teamwork in PvP and being unable to wear more than one set of armor/title/weapon set at a time in PvE prevent this. In a balanced field - which is what PvP ideally is, and what armor/weapon/title selection definitely represents, considering GW's "skins over stats" system - unlimited access allows for unlimited customization, rendering everyone "special."

Besides, doesn't your own definition of "not a grind" depend on you wanting the reward? Simply choose to "want" FoW armor for your character, and the issue of grind-farming will go away all by itself, right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

Assuming the definition of Grinding means "farming ones ass off so they can afford rare weapons and high-end armor" then no, you don't need to grind. You can get collector's weapons easily by playing through the game and knowing what collectable items to keep (thank you, wiki) and you easily make enough money from quest rewards and merch-drops for buying armor, unless you also go for the collector's armor too. For months I had a Blue Collector's Air Staff...I still have it in fact, and it doesn't work any less well than my Amadis' Air Staff, which I farmed later on when I was a little more experienced...except farming that staff wasn't grind, because I wanted it.

Again, I disagree with your definition of grinding, especially because you mention the aspects of Guild Wars that do not change game mechanics. To borrow a frequently-used word, both rare weapons and high-end armor are reskins, no more or less powerful than their common counterparts, as you point out yourself. But titles, the aspect of GW that is most grindtastic at the moment, actually do: you get special item access, improved skills, and even promised benefits in GW2! Problem is, they require the player to repeatedly roll over the same content in order to accumulate points, and that is a grind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

So, in short, if people are not content with what they can afford in-game, they really should find another game to play. Find another game which has all towns unlocked, all skills unlocked, all armor, all weapons, the max amount of money you can carry...and then think... "oh...now what do I do? I have nothing to work for".

Except this "other game" was Guild Wars not too long ago. You only had to get through the storyline once to have all the towns unlocked. You only needed to fight your way to far-off places to be able to get "special" armor. If you ran around enough, way back before there was a cop-out skill trainer in Ember Light Camp, you got to unlock all skills. You did not have to repeat any of this again, ever, and what kept you going was new content - Sorrow's Furnace, Titan quests, next chapter.

Now, instead of the "new content" - even in the form of Hard Mode, which only makes you repeat "normal mode" once - we're getting "grind," which makes you repeat things numerous times. To put it in terms of your example, it's roughly the difference between teleporting to an unlocked town and having to physically walk there, each time.

Servant of Kali · Sep 14, 2007, 09:59 AM // 09:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shyft the Pyro

What non-grind activities fill up your GW time?

PvP.

Unfortunately PvP is being plagued by PvErs and their Heroes, plus other problems (no UAX on everything). But oh well...

Cole Frehlen · Sep 14, 2007, 12:09 PM // 12:09

I have come to the conclusion that you have to have ranking in these titles to get the nice armour due to the new structuring of EotN. Think about it; in the previous campaigns, it was all very linear, and to be able to get and wear this armour you had to have progressed past a certain point. But because in EotN you can choose one of three paths to carry on down first, the ability to put in armour past a certain point had to be re-thought. And so they thought "Hey, let's make it so they have to achieve this rank before they can get it... but since it's entirely optional anyway, the people who don't want it don't have to get up to rank 5 for it".

I've had EotN since the day it came out. But I'm a casual gamer, I'm not that great and I like to play for the storyline and for fun. But I have two of my main characters slowly working through the storyline, and they have rank 3 in at least two of the tracks each (one has norn and asura, the other dwarf and ebon vanguard). I've hardly done any dungeons, just a few side quests, and zero grind. You don't have to grind, you don't have to have these new armours, and if you want them try changing things up. Do several things at once, or go from one to another. If I get bored of doing something on one character I hop over to another, see what I can do there. Since few of my characters have done the same things, there's always the opportunity for me to do something.

darktyco · Sep 14, 2007, 12:37 PM // 12:37

Grind is optional, but players who grind will be able to get better skills than you.

HardWonFame · Sep 15, 2007, 01:04 AM // 01:04

To add to my earlier brief comment...

Its all about how you look at things. My necro is a KoaBD + Tyrian GMC, I did 0 grinding to get those titles. Did I do some boring tedious titles like Lightbringer and Sunspear? Yeah. Was I having a horrible grind experience doing it? No. I threw on some good music, watched some invader zim and had fun doing 5-man farms. If I did not try to make it enjoyable I'd say it was a grind, but since I enjoyed myself and I did not make it a horrible task it was not.

All about state of mind.

Everything is a grind, or nothing is a grind. Its all about how to decide to play.

w00t! · Sep 15, 2007, 02:46 AM // 02:46

This thread pops up every 31.273 days....

In GW, grind is optional. There is absolutely no benefit from grinding, other than cosmetic and vanity.

Everything that you need can be easily obtained with collector's items, which does not require money. FoW armor confers no benefit over an item that can be obtained with monster parts.

Shyft the Pyro · Sep 15, 2007, 02:53 AM // 02:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by w00t!

This thread pops up every 31.273 days....

In GW, grind is optional. There is absolutely no benefit from grinding, other than cosmetic and vanity.

Everything that you need can be easily obtained with collector's items, which does not require money. FoW armor confers no benefit over an item that can be obtained with monster parts.

The thread you're looking for pops up a lot more often than you indicate, and while I could argue with you on the points you mention that would only turn this thread into "that thread."

Mistaking this thread for "that thread," you seem to have ignored my original question: "What do you do with your time in GW?" You're the perfect person to answer it: since you say that grinding is optional, there must be some non-grind activities that fill up your GW day. What are they?

cebalrai · Sep 15, 2007, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Grind is 100% optional. But it's what you have to do in GWEN if you want to get good stuff....

Anet said they'd never incentivize grind, but here we have it. Another step towards the WoW model...

w00t! · Sep 16, 2007, 01:01 AM // 01:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shyft the Pyro

(snip)
Mistaking this thread for "that thread," you seem to have ignored my original question: "What do you do with your time in GW?" You're the perfect person to answer it: since you say that grinding is optional, there must be some non-grind activities that fill up your GW day. What are they?

Fair point.

Most of the things I do in GW are social in nature. My primary is a Monk, so I tend to get called on lots of monkey things by my guild; helping with quests, missions, et cetera. I take great pride in monking an area without any deaths, so that's a personal "title" I work for.

When I'm not doing that I tend to do lots of team farming. My guild is composed primarily of farming types, and we are always looking for new combinations to try in particular areas. For example, every now and again we have a "Mesfest" where we take all mesmers and one monk and try to defeat different areas as fast as possible. We also do random build teams just to prove that we can defeat any area without cookie cutter wiki builds.

Since the accumulation of "stuff" is secondary (most of us are fairly cash-heavy), we do it purely for fun. Thus, there is no grind associated with what we do. So, we do whatever we want, but just make sure we're having fun while we do it.

oljomo · Sep 16, 2007, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Hi

The following things are to do in GW before you can moan about tehre bing nothing but grind:

guardian/protector titles (7)
vanquisher titles(4)
explorer titles(4)
sunspear title (vanqing should easily get you to max if you take the bounties all teh time)
that gets you to at least im very important....

also you got all 18 dungeons to do, and the storyline of gwen.

Now all that should also get you to level 5 in all but vanguard, and a fairly decent lightbringer title.

draxynnic · Sep 17, 2007, 01:48 AM // 01:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cole Frehlen

I have come to the conclusion that you have to have ranking in these titles to get the nice armour due to the new structuring of EotN. Think about it; in the previous campaigns, it was all very linear, and to be able to get and wear this armour you had to have progressed past a certain point. But because in EotN you can choose one of three paths to carry on down first, the ability to put in armour past a certain point had to be re-thought. And so they thought "Hey, let's make it so they have to achieve this rank before they can get it... but since it's entirely optional anyway, the people who don't want it don't have to get up to rank 5 for it".

I've had EotN since the day it came out. But I'm a casual gamer, I'm not that great and I like to play for the storyline and for fun. But I have two of my main characters slowly working through the storyline, and they have rank 3 in at least two of the tracks each (one has norn and asura, the other dwarf and ebon vanguard). I've hardly done any dungeons, just a few side quests, and zero grind. You don't have to grind, you don't have to have these new armours, and if you want them try changing things up. Do several things at once, or go from one to another. If I get bored of doing something on one character I hop over to another, see what I can do there. Since few of my characters have done the same things, there's always the opportunity for me to do something.

Rank 3 is easy to get, even for the Ebon Vanguard.

The problem is that without grinding, for the Ebon Vanguard at least, you'll get to the higher levels of Rank 3, maybe even the lower levels of Rank 4, and run out of things to do apart from grinding Charr - there simply aren't enough quests in the area. Oljomo may be correct on the others (the next closest area I have to finishing all the quests for is the Tarnished Coast, and that character has r4 Asura without any grinding beyond killing the occasional mob I may otherwise have left alone - I can see r5 at least being close by the time I finish) but the Vanguard certainly needs more ways to get points - or even just more things to do in the area that don't give points directly but that you will incidentally have to kill Charr (and gain points in the process) to complete - to avoid being a grind.

Cebe · Sep 17, 2007, 08:24 AM // 08:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shyft the Pyro

Hold on a minute. Going for something you want and doing something you want are two completely different things. You may want a Factions allegiance title and try to go after it, but that won't make the process of getting the title any less grind-dependent. You'll be repeating the same activity (point farming) over and over again, which is precisely the definition of a grind.

Well, is it though? If someone bought Factions for it's Alliance Battles, and really enjoyed doing them, and saw getting the max tier of the associated title as a "game", would that still be "grind"? I'm not convinced it would. Getting the max tier of a title you want isn't grind imo, it's part of the overall game. Now, a while back I completed the Sunspear title track purely for the fact I wanted another max title to count to the Max Title Title Track, I didn't like completing that, but I did anyway, and thus, I considered it grind. Now I could have done a Guardian title...but that would have taken me considerable longer, and although it would have been more enjoyable, I didn't really have the time at that point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shyft the Pyro

If the game isn't designed with the grind in mind, why do GWEN armors require titles to access?

Though you have a fair point, I've gained all the points I need for all armors, except Ebon Vanguard, by completing the storyline once, the dungeons once, exploring each area once (other than those I needed to re-visit for quests), and completing most quests once. If "grind" isn't doing something once...then gaining Rank 5 for the armors isn't "grind", other than Ebon Vanguard, and I grant you that one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shyft the Pyro

but the current GW system is to reward repeated, practically automated activity, especially and specifically with regard to titles.

Of course, their reward for "automated activitiy" is a ban.

(joke)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shyft the Pyro

Besides, doesn't your own definition of "not a grind" depend on you wanting the reward? Simply choose to "want" FoW armor for your character, and the issue of grind-farming will go away all by itself, right?

I didn't want Mesmer Obdisian enough to warrant the ecto-farming.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shyft the Pyro

Except this "other game" was Guild Wars not too long ago. You only had to get through the storyline once to have all the towns unlocked. You only needed to fight your way to far-off places to be able to get "special" armor. If you ran around enough, way back before there was a cop-out skill trainer in Ember Light Camp, you got to unlock all skills. You did not have to repeat any of this again, ever, and what kept you going was new content - Sorrow's Furnace, Titan quests, next chapter.

I bought Guild Wars when Factions was released. Perhaps if I had had it from the beginning, I would feel the same as you. We all love to reminisce, but the game surely was always bound to change?

Seems to me the people's perception of Grind is subjective.

Karia Mirniman · Sep 17, 2007, 09:03 AM // 09:03

[QUOTE=Alex Morningstar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

Agreed, if you like doing it, it isn't grind. Grind is sitting and doing something that sucks because you think the reward will be worth it.QUOTE]

QFT.

Grinding in GW really is optional. If you think it isn't, then you're doing something wrong, or your attitude on somethings need a recheck. It has been said that making a new character to go through the game again is a grind. No it isn't, it's a different play style, if it's a grind to you, then don't do it.

If you want to see grind, go play WoW with their 60-70 level cap. People crying about grind in GW is just that, crying. It's usually the same people who want people to play the game for them.

Thats good, any opinion other than your own and out come the insults.

Karia Mirniman · Sep 17, 2007, 09:28 AM // 09:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial_Kitsune

Indeed, grinding is absolutely optional. Here is what you can do to avoid or alleviate it.

Ask yourself if you really need that elite armor, max title, rare weapon, etc. Do those pretty pixels really worth hours of your life? To learn about yourself a little more, you can take this test. If you are determined to get that item of your dreams, then you need to choose a way to acquire it.

Some things such as FoW armor or max allegiance title would require you to do this (Source). To make grind less boring, you can grind moderately, but regularly and vary types of grind. This will make you a little bit less depressed grinder.

If your goal is less ambitious, you could try to achieve it via completion of quests / missions / areas. A good example is rank five requirement for GWEN armor. This requirement should not be there, but can be easily achieved without any grind if you are willing to wait a little longer. You'll have about 11K Asura faction after you finish storyline.

Beating GWEN and taking blessings on the way = 11 K points
Turning in Hero Handbook for faction: 2.5K
Shards of Orr dungeon: 3K
Oola's Lab dungeon: 0.5K
Bogroot Growths dungeon: 1K
Arachni's Haunt dungeon: 1.5K
Tarnished Coast Quests: about 1.5K
Getting blessings while doing all of the above dungeons and quests: probably above 5K

Do not turn play into work!

Summarised into the following: Grind is optional; Just do without the rewards of the game and play lots more hours.

I am having my medication changed.

Karia Mirniman · Sep 17, 2007, 09:54 AM // 09:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by oljomo

Hi

The following things are to do in GW before you can moan about tehre bing nothing but grind:

guardian/protector titles (7)
vanquisher titles(4)
explorer titles(4)
sunspear title (vanqing should easily get you to max if you take the bounties all teh time)
that gets you to at least im very important....

also you got all 18 dungeons to do, and the storyline of gwen.

Now all that should also get you to level 5 in all but vanguard, and a fairly decent lightbringer title.

The Explorer titles are full of grind. I.e. 6 hours edge scrapping, looking for that missing 0.1 %.

You can cheat. There are great mods that stop that title being grind. But that isn’t going to change the fact the game has built in grind.